Elster's World

Wednesday, December 06, 2006


- Did you know that the secular Jews of Israel were the cause of the war with Hezbollah this past summer?

Actually no, it was the Chareidim and their intolerance of anyone not like them (especially homosexuals) that caused the war.

- Did you know that American Chassidim are a bunch of insular, Kool-Ade drinking cultish wackos who force their families to live like they do or face terrible consequences?

Actually, it’s the modern orthodox Jews that are the problem. They are a bunch of hypocritical, have your cake and eat it too phonies who think you can live a Torah lifestyle while still floating around in the secular world.

-Did you know the “frummies” moved into Far Rockaway and destroyed the once proud White Shul (all while single-handedly refusing to pay dues)?

Actually no, it was the old time, modern orthodox Jews who refused to bend to the will of the new majority.

- Did you know that the women of Lawrence are a bunch of hypocrites too? They pretend to be “very frum” but we all see them walking around Central Avenue in their too tight shirts and, gasp, long shaitels.

Well at least they are better than their more modern counterparts who dress in such a way that you honestly could not tell them apart from non-Jews walking the same streets.

And on and on it goes. The more I jump from J-blog to J-blog, the more I see that the battle lines of the posters, and those commenting, are as clearly drawn as can be. Simply put, the majority of J-blog readers and writers fall into one camp or another. There is such a lack of color, it is all black and white, that I find myself wondering if there is something wrong with me for not seeing things as clearly as they do. The amazing thing is that both sides are so convinced they are correct, I find myself bewildered re: how every single issue has two right answers that are exactly 180 degrees apart from each other.

I will not pretend this is a new problem. I’ve been blogging for about a year and a half (give or take) and I guess the opposing masses have always been there. When I was more of a rookie, I just assumed I had stumbled onto the blogs where everyone fought all the time. Then as I became more confident in my own blog (as well as the limited number of blogs I tried to read), I simply stopped reading the incendiary blogs I had first started on. I stayed away from blogs which talked for the most part about politics or religion – I read blogs to escape – and so I tried to stick with the entertaining blogs.

Recently (and due mostly in part to slower days in the office as the year winds down), I have come back to these blogs and I am really disturbed by all of the negative energy there. As I mentioned above, people seem to align themselves in the extremes. Something is good or that thing is bad. There is simply no in between.

Sometimes, this is fine. When the topic is a movie, I have no problem with the definitive “I hated Borat, it sucked”. I do, however, have problems with people making such definitive statements about more serious topics – like "are Chassidim good or bad"? or "are Modern orthodox people really considered Jews"? or "since the OU is a modern orthodox hechsher it is not reliable to any 'yiddidhe neshama'".

These extremes bother me to no end. It’s funny, I recently stumbled upon the blog of a Chassidish man who no longer believes in Chassidism at all – he felt so closed off from reality that he eventually decided to just not believe at all. Sure, he still has all of the external trappings, but that is only so that his children can get married to “fine” matches. He writes of his double life and the toll it takes on him. He is constantly asked by people commenting: why not just live a Jewish, but not Chassidish life – why not live as a Modern Orthodox Jew? His answer, basically, is that modern orthodoxy is a big form of hypocracy – trying to be Torah Jews while living a non-Torah lifestyle is simply an unattainable goal, he argues.

And this type of answer just kills me. Here’s a guy who you would think would at least try to be more tolerant of things (and beliefs) which are different than him. Instead, he simply groups all "MO’s" into one big category of "hypocrites".

But the question is, does he even understand that not all modern orthodox Jews are the same any more than Satmar chassidim are like Lubavitch? And how offended would this same man be if some ignorant modern Jew would proclaim “all Chassidim are the same”. "The same?" he would ask. "Feh, you are an ignoramus." Well couldn't that possibly be true about modern orthodoxy as well?

I recently finished Unchosen – The Secret Lives of Chassidic Rebels, written by Helena Winston. She focuses (narrowly) on a few cases of Chassidm who have left the fold and she declares that Chassidus is suffering from a problem – too many of its people are finding themselves repressed and are thus leaving the fold. In the book she (an unaffiliated Jew) makes the same mistake re: modern orthodoxy – by definition (or so she seems to believe those chassidim who tell her this) a modern orthodox woman wears pants and doesn’t cover her hair when she gets married. But that’s simply false. There are plenty of so-called MO women who wear tzniuous skirts and hair coverings after marriage and, GASP, follow the Torah's other commandments as well.

The point, of course, is that we cannot simply group people together into extremes, into camps, into black and white. People are too individual for that. Even groups are too unique for that. But if that isn’t your philosophy, then you simply don’t care enough to learn about your “enemy”. It's oh so much simpler to just throw them on the bonfire too.

Machlokes. In the time of the Talmud, machlokes described the arguments of the sages regarding various legal points of Jewish law. But that was the beauty of the talmudic machlokes. I once read (cannot remember where) that while the sages disagreed on the means, they always agreed on the ends. For example: You cannot eat milk right after meat according to all, the communities simply argued over how long you must wait. Everyone agreed you must check certain rows of a wine cellar for Chametz prior to Pesach – Beis Hillel and Beis Shammai simply argued over how one fulfills his checking requirements. The means were always agreed upon.

Today, it’s simply not like this anymore. It is almost like there are multiple forms of Judaism. And everyone must pick a side. You either wear jeans or you wear a Streimel. You either drink all milk (per Rav Moshe) or non-cholov yisrael is treif. There simply isn’t a middle ground. And as the middle disappears, we actually are creating multiple forms of Judaism.

Strife is part and parcel with our people. Three Jews, four opinions is the saying (or something relatively close to that). The question is, where does it end? The vitriol I see on blogs – the anti- whatever sentiment, is too strong to be just there for incendiary purposes. Everyone seems to have an agenda – which is to push their point of views. To spread, dare I say, hate.

They don’t see it that way of course. After all, when you speak the truth how can that be considered hatred? But you know what? I’m going to take an extreme position, I’m going to emphatically state that it is hatred that is being spread – it is hatred that you feel when you start writing an anti - whatever rant. It’s in your words. It’s “they” and “them” - like you are talking about a different race as opposed to a different sect of your own people. It’s about spreading blame for all of your troubles.

I have no answer for the question, but here it is. Why? Why do some people feel they have more in common with the slutty girl in the office next door who comes into work every Friday morning hung over and with crazy stories from the night before than they do with a tzniuously dressed woman from Boro Park? Why do the ultra orthodox consider modern Jews as though they are not jews at all? Why so much strife? Why the machlokes? Why the absolute lack of tolerance?

Silly me but - why can't we all just get along?


  • I love it.

    "But the question is, does he even understand that not all modern orthodox Jews are the same any more that Satmar chassidim are like Lubavitch? "

    "But that was the beauty of the talmudic machlokes. I once read (cannot remember where) that while the sages disagreed on the means, they always agreed on the ends. "

    Thank you very much.

    By Blogger Sara, at 10:51 PM  

  • This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    By Blogger Lvnsm27, at 11:01 PM  

  • the back and forth fighting bothers me too.

    I would love for there to be unity. And I think the only way we can accomplish this is if we ALL do some introspection and work on ourselves. If we do this, then it will work. I know it sounds like a dream and sounds impossible, but we shouldn't let that discourage us. We should just each one try and it will add up.

    By Blogger Lvnsm27, at 11:05 PM  

  • Excellent post Mr Elster. Intolerance, intolerance, intolerance.
    Blogging has become a place where people can express what they otherwise couldn't in "real life" I really do mostly see the fighting on the chassidish blogs. I think it has a lot to do with the issues written about and the crowds you attract. People stifled mre in real life, tend to lash out a little more when they have the opportunity.

    By Blogger Sara with NO H, at 8:00 AM  

  • Sara - thank you - I really wish I could remember where that line came from

    LV - Introspection is great, but tolreance, I think, is also something you either grow up seeing or you don't.

    SWNH - Interestin point. Sadly, the polarization goes both ways and is not limited to chassidish blogs.

    By Blogger Elster, at 9:17 AM  

  • I actually think that in many communities, especially among younger people, there is a move to the center by moderate charedi and serious modern Orthodox Jews. I see this in Kew Gardens Hills, the Five Towns, Teaneck, and even in parts of Monsey and Flatbush.

    As for the infighting, I maintain that people have a tendency to factionalize and to streotype and prejudge "the other" even when the other is objectively very similar to them. Each individual must recognize this destructive tendency and try to eradicare it from within themselves.

    By Blogger Joe Schick, at 10:01 AM  

  • Joe - I'm happy to hear your first point and you are spot on on the second. What people are missing is the DESTRUCTIVNESS of their words. Fractionalization is in NO ONE'S self interest.

    By Blogger Elster, at 11:02 AM  

  • Great post. I don't have much to add, except to relate a story. Someone once asked my Rosh Yeshiva about the belief of some Chabadnikim that the Rebbe is Mashiach. He replied that it wasn't avodah zarah (idol worship) or kefira (heresy) or anything like that; it was just wrong. I feel like not only have we largely lost the category of "different but ok," we've also lost the category of "wrong, but not bad."

    That is, people see those more to their left as kofrim (heretics) and those more to their right as fascist nutjobs. When did it become impossible for someone to be wrong but not bad?

    (It's like the old George Carlin quote: "Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?")

    I'm not sure which gemara you're referring to, or what you mean by "ends" and "means," but a good example to reference is the story about how even though Beit Hillel and Beit Shammai diferred on matters of marriage and ritual purity, they still married their children off to each other and ate each other's food(Mishnah Yevamot 1:4, appearing on Yevamot 14b in the Babylonian Talmud). No matter how you interpret this, there is clearly more tolerance there than is typical in our Jewish world.

    On the other hand, maybe we're focusing too much on the negative. Maybe there is bridge-building going on at the individual personal level, but it's a slow and painstaking process. For instance, it's interesting that this post should come out at roughly the same time as Sarah is telling her story.

    By Blogger ilan, at 11:32 AM  

  • Ilan:

    I'm not sure if it was a Gemarah I was quoting or just a Rabbinic thought - the ENDS are - the end resulting requirement. The means are simply how one observes the obligation.

    In more modern examples - there are definitely Laws of Tznious - but as we see from Chayei Sara's post that you linked to, theres are different MEANS to get there (ie just covering elboys or wearing long sleeves - acceptable lengths for skirts or shaitels, etc).

    By Blogger Elster, at 1:22 PM  

  • Also (semi) on topic this week - http://www.themaggidofbergenfield.com/

    By Blogger Elster, at 1:28 PM  

  • I think i've made comments about this before on my own blog (however I think i've recently taken them down...)

    it really really frusturates me when people get in to this every one else but me is bad. like they said that who is wise? he who learns from every person (perkei avos).

    I remember once hearing a maisa about a big early 20th century american rabbi's grand daughter. She had just been tested and informed that she was incredibly intelegent, more so than basicaly everyone else around her. Filled with the outragous pride of a 6 year old, she brazenly informed her mother of this fact while they where walking home from school. Shocked and just a little bit offended her mother stoped her, bent down to her daughters eye level and told her in no uncertain terms that every single person around her knew something more about happiness, life, and I think love (I think) than we do.

    also it teaches us not to denigrate anyone or anything because every person has their hour, and every thing has it's place. (perkei avos)

    I also know that the bais hamikdash was destroyed for behavior like this, and the students of rabbi akiva died for this sin. I wish that everyone could just get along, respect and love each other and realize that each of us contributes something very essential to the world.

    it's like the torah. we say that it has 600000 letters, but is every one of those letters an alef? is each one of those letters in the same place? no. We have a whole aleph bais of different letters there, all in different places, and all of them together make the torah.

    each of us, with our oppinions is necessary, and i really don't see why one approach is worse or better than any other!

    (and i really need to keep better track of your blog elster, one day, bli neder, i'm going to get you on my list of links, sorry i haven't already. it's been a long time that i've been trying to remember to do it.)

    By Blogger Halfnutcase, at 2:14 PM  

  • HNC - As long as you keep coming back (i.e. not giving into what you wrote about at your own blog), it's all good.

    Keep the faith - it will work out.

    By Blogger Elster, at 2:34 PM  

  • I too have read The Unchosen. A friend of mine married one of the subjects.
    Diversity has always existed in judaism as has intolerance.
    In the time of Chanukah, the Chashmonaim were quite unpopular with many other groups of their time. In a world where we learn that a law can only be observed a certain way-- ie fundamentalism-- it is only natural for controversy to flourish.
    Boy, am I a downer
    Larry (The Maggid)

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 5:32 PM  

  • Larry - You seem much happier at your site.....

    I'd be very interested to know WHICH subject. IF you can tell me, please send me an email.

    By Blogger Elster, at 5:55 PM  

  • He was the one they referred to as the Iluy. ie the gemarah genius.
    I'm happy on every site. Just more pensive politically than fictionally.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12:21 PM  

  • I see. Well, pensiveness has its moments.

    By the by, I love your site. Everyone should read the Maggid every week.

    By Blogger Elster, at 12:33 PM  

  • Are you so tolerant yourself? Quote from you: As far as I’m concerned a gay-pride rally anywhere in Israel is flat out wrong.

    Sure I'll be tolerant, as long as you do things my way.

    By Blogger Teddy Douglas, at 12:39 PM  

  • Teddy - If you read my post all the way through, you will see (i) While I disapproved of the parade, I took the side of NOT using all means to stop it, and (ii) I fully admit that I have been re-thinking my position on homosexuality.

    Besides, I can be tolerant of a position without agreeing with it. Never do I say anyone has to do anyhting my way. heck, I can't even get my kids to listen to me. But certainly that doesn't mean I'm not entitled to an opinion....

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    Встречаемся 2 года.

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    P.S. Похожая история уже была. Я тоже зашел за ней и 1,5 часа ждал пока она выслушала истории своих сотрудниц. Но тогда я терпел.
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